Sunday, September 18, 2016

Islam 8




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        MikeFoley  OldBoris  9 days ago

        You'll find that no holy book was written by god, so they are not his words. They are written by humans who pretend they are the words of god.


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            OldBoris  MikeFoley  9 days ago

            Islam's problem is that the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God. Even the suggestion that Muhammed and his men came up with the text of the Quran is enough to earn you the death penalty in several Muslim countries. That makes it exceedingly difficult to 'reform' Islam.


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                Sun Risings  OldBoris  9 days ago

                The Judeo-Christian Bible is also supposed to be " the literal word of God", but I don't see Catholics or Evangelists stoning girls and women to death for adultery, That's in the Biblical "Law".
                Looks like you want to replace fanatism with another fanatism...
                That makes you very similar to the folks you hate so much.


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                Amaraa  OldBoris  9 days ago

                I totally get what you mean. I'm Muslim as well and don't like idea of women wearing niqaab either. I don't think there is anything written in Quran about the fact that women have to wear it. I think it is only Sunnah. And this... "It's 2016 and we need to stop thinking that what was done hundreds of years ago applies today" - couldn't agree more.


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                  Sun Risings  OldBoris  9 days ago

                  ..."If it was the word of God....". --It wasn't. That's the absurd thing here.


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                      Ayn Al-Nimr  OldBoris  9 days ago

                      I wish you had actually read the Koran because then you would know in it God NEVER says women must cover their hair. Some of the Hadiths do but they also say a lot of other fucked up stuff not that the Koran doesnt it actually supports slavery but we don't let Muslims have slaves. But this whole debate that the hijab/ niqab is somehow religious and in the Koran is total crap bc it isn't. More people need to read the Koran so they can stand up to this Islamic crap that certain Muslims try to pull.


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                          OldBoris  Ayn Al-Nimr  9 days ago

                          "I wish you had actually read the Koran because then you would know in it God NEVER says women must cover their hair."
                          Actually, I never said that. I know very well what the Quran says on the matter: that they ought to cover their chests and turn their gaze downward.


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                          Misanthropia  OldBoris  9 days ago

                          Some of the stuff that was done back then was done according to the situation. And context is everything.


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                              Solaire of Astora  Misanthropia  9 days ago

                              Exactly the Quran is written in the context of war, as it was written during a lot of tribal war. Or so I understand.


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                                  OldBoris  Solaire of Astora  9 days ago

                                  It was written during tribal wars in which Muhammed commanded one of the most brutal and succesful armies in Arabia. But the Quran was not written in a relativistic fashion. It was written to apply, in large part, universally.
                                  For example, the at-Tawbah, which is the chronologically last verse of the Quran to lay out rules for behaviour of Muslims towards non-Muslims and was written after Muhammed's last major victory in battle, begins as follows:
                                  "[This is a declaration of] disassociation, from Allah and His Messenger, to those with whom you had made a treaty among the polytheists.
                                  So travel freely, [O disbelievers], throughout the land [during] four months but know that you cannot cause failure to Allah and that Allah will disgrace the disbelievers.
                                  And [it is] an announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah is disassociated from the disbelievers, and [so is] His Messenger. So if you repent, that is best for you; but if you turn away - then know that you will not cause failure to Allah . And give tidings to those who disbelieve of a painful punishment.
                                  Excepted are those with whom you made a treaty among the polytheists and then they have not been deficient toward you in anything or supported anyone against you; so complete for them their treaty until their term [has ended]. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].
                                  And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
                                  This verse is particularly important for jihadists, because it is an exhortation to wage war and a blanket ban on most new peace treaties with non-Muslims. It does set two time limits: a general four-month time limit that ended almost fourteen hundred years ago, and a time limit as agreed to in truces made between Muslims and non-Muslims prior to the 'revelation' of this verse. But after that, in general, Muslims should wage war against all non-believers.

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                                      Solaire of Astora  OldBoris  9 days ago

                                      I don't know enough about the Quran to give a good retort.


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                                          OldBoris  Solaire of Astora  9 days ago

                                          Most people in the West don't know Islam that well, and probably don't want to (on one hand because it would be a waste of their time to study its theology when they do not think it is relevant to their lives and their futures, and on the other hand because perhaps they've heard some bad things about it and don't want to know about it because they want to believe in peaceful coexistence).
                                          That is what makes it frustrating for people like myself: we are like lone voices in the desert when we say that Islam's theology contains more ideological than spiritual elements and can lead to serious violence in this world. Our own people fight us, call us paranoid, and when we invite them to order a Quran from their local mosque (to ensure that we're not cherry-picking or taking things out of context) and read it to find out for themselves they say no, that's ridiculous, they don't have time.
                                          But, as they say in my country: 'een gewaarschuwd mens telt voor twee', or 'a warned/informed person counts for two/is doubly important'.


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                                              kingnotail  OldBoris  9 days ago

                                              "That is what makes it frustrating for people like myself: we are like
                                              lone voices in the desert when we say that Islam's theology contains
                                              more ideological than spiritual elements and can lead to serious
                                              violence in this world. Our own people fight us, call us paranoid, and
                                              when we invite them to order a Quran from their local mosque (to ensure
                                              that we're not cherry-picking or taking things out of context) and read
                                              it to find out for themselves they say no, that's ridiculous, they don't
                                              have time."
                                              You really are an arrogant, egotistical and inherently boring waste of skin, aren't you?


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                                        Ji99a  Misanthropia  9 days ago

                                        So can we throw away Islam since all the teachings in there are not applicable anymore.


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                                            OldBoris  Misanthropia  9 days ago

                                            Quran 24:2 reads: "The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion of Allah , if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment."
                                            Do you believe that this rule applies today?
                                            Quran 4:15 reads: "Those who commit unlawful sexual intercourse of your women - bring against them four [witnesses] from among you. And if they testify, confine the guilty women to houses until death takes them or Allah ordains for them [another] way."
                                            Do you believe that this rule applies today?


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